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Message # 53981.3.1.1.1

Subject: None Re:Producers should read this, then talk with us...

Date: Fri 13/04/12 00:11:59 GMT

Name: MK gb

Email: wamtec@comcast.net

Website:

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Well....you are speaking as a consumer of wetlook, and my experience has been as producer of it, and from my perspective I never saw the 1990's as being a "sellers market"...cos neither I nor the other major producers I knew at that time were getting rich by producing wetlook videos, cos we all had to wait at least 1-2 years before we could find enough sales to recover our costs, and we could have easily made mainstream fetish videos and done far better, with quicker returns on investments. All the WAM producers I knew made their videos not because of financial motives, but merely to pursue their own lifelong interests in the subject matter, and so from a business perspective it was hardly a sellers market to us, and I would call it a "barely viable" way for us to recoup our production costs. So....what has changed in the last 10 years is that things have gone from being being viable to completely unviable, and the only ones still producing are strictly the diehard and dedicated wetlook producers who are great fans themselves.

 

The way that technology has evolved in the last 10 years reminds me of a 1961 episode of "The Twilight Zone"....called "The Rip Van Winkle Caper".....which tells the ironic tale of 3 guys who bury some gold in a mountain and try to escape from the cops by going iinto a cryogenic sleep for 100 years, thinking that when they awake they can recover their gold, but when they awake 100 years later they find that the gold is now totally worthless cos technology advancements have now made it possible for gold to be mass produced very cheaply....and this a great metaphor for what has happened to wetlook now due to advancements in technology ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rip_Van_Winkle_Caper

 

So....these days wetlook can be mass produced very cheaply with a mere cellphone, and given away for free on Youtube.....so this is why only the most boneheaded and diehard producers like me still keep on producing....cos there is little viable support any more.

 

This is why many producers will only do wetlook "their way" and in "their style"....because with so little support these days, the main thing is just to please yourself these days, because we can't compete with "Jack and Jill and a cellphone" and billion dollar corporation sites like Youtube who can give away all their videos for free, because they are generating 40 million dollars per month from their advertising schemes.

 

So....the writing has already been on the wall for the last few years.......i.e. producers cannot compete with amateurs and their cellphones, nor can we match what youtube can do either...and produce media for free, cos we do not get mainstream advertisers to support our sites (e.g. we have been using pantyhose for 20 years in our videos, but I none of the pantyhose manufacturers would want to associate themselves by advertsing on our site...ha ha).

 

The ONLY way you can be successful as a producer in future, is that you have to be very creative and think of innovative new concepts and media delivery methods that are not available on Youtube and cannot be emulated cheaply by amateurs......and this is the new direction I am now heading in, cos we just hired a new systems developer this month who has begun programming for a new site we will be launching in beta test mode later this summer....and this will be a new kind of media delivery system that any wetlook or messy producer will be also able to use as well for their own media, and something that Youtube does not offer to their viewers.

 

So....the future of wetlook media as I see it..... is very simple....i.e.

 

- if you are a free media wetlook fan .....good news...you can be spoon fed on a drip feed every day by sites like Youtube....so long as you are willing to accept wetlook in the adhoc and impromptu way that mainstream people create their clips.

- if you want clips made in very specific ways as per your own procilivities and pecadillos....the best thing to do is get yourself a cellphone and a girlfriend, otherwise, you should sponsor one of the many producers who will offer to make a custom video for you.

- if you are a Producer.....then you need to be at the top of your game (and many of them already are) cos you have to be able to create things that are better than Youtube media and in innovative new ways that Youtube does not offer

 

MK

In reply to Message (53981.3.1.1) None Re:Producers should read this, then talk with us...

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Thu 12/04/12 22:15:01 GMT

Website:


I think you've either glossed over or only hinted at one key point:

 

In the days when there were few producers, it was a "seller's market" and you could set your price at a point where you got the sales to recoup your production investment which was still tolerable for buyers because it wasn't like they had a whole lot of less expensive choices.

 

Today, with all the free youtubes out there, it's largely a "buyer's market" where cost is everything, and a lot is free. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for.

 

Personally, I'd rather pay a few extra bucks for something that is right up my alley than skim through hours of free crap because that's really what most of it is.

 

Again, unfortunately, the masses seem to prefer cheap over good and free over cheap, regardless of how crappy it might be, so folks like me are up against a barrier of cost for what I'd really enjoy - I'd likely have to pay the full production cost of something I'd really enjoy because there's likely noone else out there anymore who would bear the cost (which would be perfectly reasonable cost if it were spread out over enough customers) because they are all gravitating towards what they can get for free.

 

Maybe I missed a "step 1a" in my previous post... pre-sales... solicit buyers to pre-pay for a video when it's at the "treatment" stage in order to "pre-finance" it and help offset producer risk. Would be nice if it could work, but something tells me that trust would be a big issue, and there's no way a full refund could be made for a failed project because of payment transaction fees.

 

Still... I'm almost inclined to set up a website to run a scheme like this... I have a few ideas on how it could be made to work, but it all depends on the faith/trust of those who pony up money for something which may take a while to materialize, and won't work if there is a loss of absence of trust.

 

In reply to Message (53981.3.1) None Re:Producers should read this, then talk with us...

By MK - wamtec@comcast.net gb Thu 12/04/12 19:40:00 GMT

Website:


AnthonyX's points are spot on.

 

 To add some historical perspective, and how the advent of technology improvements in the last 20 years has had both dramatically positive AND negative effects on the producers abilities to create media, firstly

 

- regarding scripts and scenarios, one should recognize that there have always been 2 kinds of Producers in our world ... i.e. those who only do "modelling scenes"...where there is never any storyline or script and the scenes are more like a wetlook fashion modelling show...or more like a photo shoot captured on video. Some producers have always preferred to do unscripted modelling sessions, not scenarios or scripts, and that is their preferred style. Other producers like Leon, Flaviu and myself, do a wide variety of scenes....some are scripted scenarios, and others are pure modelling sessions. So -- if you prefer to see scripted scenarios, you can easily find several producers who often produce them, but don't expect the producers who only do unscripted modelling sessions to change their style, cos that is not their style or interest. Most of the producers that prefer to focus on unscripted modelling sessions have professional photographic backgrounds, so they are far more interested in the lighting than a script. So....just visit the sites that produce the kinds of media you like, but don't expect a leopard to change it's spots and act like a tiger....cos leopards want to be leopards. not tigers.

 

Regarding the "regression" in the amount of scripted scenarios and feature length videos with storylines that are far less today than they used to be in the 1990's....that is true. In the 1990's you had UK producers Aquantics, Artscene, Buff Films, and Splosh productions all making feature length videos with scripts, as well as Messy Fun and myself in the USA producing lots of feature length viideos with scripts too. E.G. from 1992 until 1996 I produced several 90 minute scripted videos such as The Castaways on Jungle Jane Island, Agent H20 & The Bionic Bimbo, The Super Sweepstakes, The Adventures of Aquagirl, Agent H20 & The Vampires from Hell, Battle of the SSS Superstars, The Bully Girls, The Girl from Atlantis....and several others

 

http://www.aquaentertainment.com/videos/mark-features-c-25_27.html

 

Aquantics and Messy Fun also made over 2 dozen feature film length productions in the 1990s  too

 

As Anthony mentioned, our ability to produce such features is totally budget driven and based on how many customers we had that support us. This set our budgets for what we could and could not afford to do.....and this is where technology advancements over the last 10 years have mostly worked  for "the consumer" but AGAINST us producers....cos in the 1990's there was no such thing as cheap cameras that could produce high quality video productions, cos in order to produce professional quality video in the 1990s you had to spend 15 to 20 grand to buy professional grade cameras like a Sony Betacam SP and you had to spend 25 to 50 grand to buy video editing decks, so this was a major investment to make in video production gear, and the feature length videos that Messyfun, Aquantics and I used to make all cost 20-25 grand per video in production costs. Of course this is nothing like Hollywood spends, but for us, spending 25 grand per video release was quite a lot of money to us small time producers in those days (it cost about the same amount to make "The Blair Witch Project" too)....and we had to finance everything ourselves and wait 2-3 years to get enough sales to recover our costs.

 

Anyway, in the 1990's there was no such thing as cheap digital cameras, so basically that meant that only a small handful of producers in the UK and USA were willing to make the investments needed to produce such media, and there was no competition from amateurs ......as you see today....cos today the HD technology is so good....you can buy a Kodak Playsport or GoPro pocket size camera for $100, and this now produces video quality that only a $25,000 professional camera could have done in the 1990's. So....now...."everybody" is a producer.....i.e. anybody with a cellphone and a girlfriend....ha ha. Also, in the 1990s there was no such thing as "free media".....and since Youtube started in 2005...and with all these cheap HD cameras and free media sites like Youtube......now instead of a small handful of producers who had a loyal fan base where each producers used to have great support and patronage, now today most producers I know have lost 80% of the support they used to have....because now you have 300+ producers and too much competition, and 90% of the wet and messy fans prefer free media sites instead of supporting the producers sites....and now with the current economic recessions in the USA and Europe......you have..... THE PERFECT STORM.....

 

....so...the good news is, technology advances and the growth in the internet have been great for the consumer......but terrible for the producers.....these are the 3 negatiive elements that are killing our ability to produce high quality media......i.e. cheap HD camcorders (where everybody is now a producer) and the birth of free media sites like Youtube ...when added to the economic recessions in the USA and Europe (i.e. people have little disposable income these days....and so they get their jollies from Youtube cos they can no longer support the producers very much)

 

I am not whining.....I am merely stating a fact.....i.e. for the consumer...technology advancements have taken the consumer 5 steps forward.....but for us Producers....we have gotten the same 5 steps forward....only that we are standing in the midst of a 150mph hurricane that is blowing us backwards, cos in the past I could do any script I wanted to do and in the 1990's I could safely invest 10-20 grand to make a nice feature length scripted video on location, but these days there is so much competition and we lost so much our support because of the popularity of Youtube .....which is why I am considering shutting down several of my sites by end of this year....for example www.thewambank.com -- cos that is a perfect example of how Youtube has killed all our support. I opened that site in 2002, before Youtube existed, and we used to have several hundred supporters who joined as members and supported the server costs, but now since Youtube is so popular, we no longer get enough support to pay for the server that hosts theWambank now ....so sadly, unless things improve, we will probably have to close thewambank site by end of this year, cos 90% of our former members no longer support the site and we lost 90% of our uploaders too....so it seems that nobody needs theWambank any more, cos they prefer Youtube instead.....so these are the pros and cons with technology developments.......i.e. when the car was first invented....it caused a lot of horses to be sent to the knackers yard to be put down....ha ha....and it looks like theWambank is the horse and Youtube is the car that people prefer.

 

So basically.....the way things are going with technology these days.....you really do not need producers to create your own fantasies for you....cos if you have a cellphone and a girlfriend....you can do them all yourself.

 

And now I am off to my stable.....cos the work just keeps on piling up.

 

MK

 

 

 

 

In reply to Message (53981.3) None Re:Producers should read this, then talk with us...

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Thu 12/04/12 17:03:25 GMT

Website:


I'm sure all the great WAM producers out there appreciate customer feedback, but I'm also sure the successful ones don't need to be told how to do what they do.

 

Of everything I've ever bought, I can always say "if only...", but there are a few realities to bear in mind...

 

o  You can't please everyone... despite our common interests, there is still a lot of individual variation in what each of us really wants to see.

 

o  It's already a niche market with limited customer base... that means that for a given price point, there is only so much money to be earned from a given video or picture set.

 

o  Limited revenue means limited budget... only so much for models, clothing, equipment, consumables (eg WAM supplies), location, transportation, etc.

 

o  Models are MODELS, not actresses... story needs script, script needs WRITERS and ACTORS, not just some guy with a camera and a girl just having fun. Done as a hobby, you get what you get; done for profit, you get what you pay for.

 

Maybe it is possible to get a different result with a different approach, but there is no guarantee for anybody...

 

What if we took a "community" approach...

 

Step 1: Anyone want to draft up some "fantasy scenarios" as hollywood style short film "treatments" (for a small piece of the final production revenues)?

 

Step 2: Anyone want to take one of those treatments and turn it into a shootable script (also for a piece of the final production revenues)?

 

Step 3: Anyone want to take one of those shootable scripts and produce it into a short film (to sell and split some of the revenues with the writers)?

 

 

 

In reply to Message (53981) Peace Man Producers should read this, then talk with us...

By many of us - us Thu 12/04/12 14:49:13 GMT

Website: itysm


Several visitors in this very good forum are thinking that things could find some renewal. We have very professional producers doing good job with movie making and editing. - Respect. - But read this, please...

 

1 ) Producers are making good movies but sometimes the models don't play enough during the shoot.

 

     Producers are able to reach a very good quality of the lighting, the pictures. It's a real mark of respect for the customers.

 

     But the storyboard is poor... and it's a little boring. No renewal...

 

 

 

2) It will be happy to see producers creating 3 kinds of categories : A) wetlook alone B) wetlook with soap C) wam and destructive

 

    Here we have 3 different tastes. An advice could be to create separate accounts for these different tastes and to advertise more about it. As an example when you go on UMD.net you have 80 % messy,

 

    15 % wetlook and 5 % soapy... (amout of global productions) :-(

 

 

 

3) As future new customers, it's not easy to know what you will find on a website, before subscribing. Samples and full storyboard pictures are really a big incentive to subscribe.

 

    Pix don't need to be big, but should show full action, so one can judge if it is for his tastes or not. Scenarii all need a good renewal, but producers have won a tribute to the quality of their works. Some new

 

    ideas ARE MISSING... BE SOFT, please, (in a world of violence and darkness).

 

 

 

4) Here we have a good website, and moreover there are really good samples of what you can find.

 

    Models are going into a pool, with chlorine.

 

http://splashinfashion.com/Galleries/2011/Tiffany/TiffanyJeans2%20%284%29.jpg , http://splashinfashion.com/Galleries/2011/Tiffany/TiffanyJeans2%20%2824%29.jpg , http://splashinfashion.com/ModelsPages/Tanya.htm , http://splashinfashion.com/Galleries/09Shoots/TanyaJeans1%20%2819%29.jpg , http://splashinfashion.com/Galleries/2010%20img/HeatherJeans1ts%20%286%29.jpg , http://splashinfashion.com/Galleries/2010%20img/HeatherJeans1ts%20%2820%29.jpg

 

 

 

   This chlorine can damage the outfits they had, so I am nearly sure they have taken a shower after exiting to rinse them. It would have been so easy to add some shampoo and soap and shoot another clip to

 

   show the wear and wash process. Please, shoot again some clips doing so ! I will be a subscriber immediately - and may be I will not be alone.

 

 

 

5) Good examples with dare games on youtube : Some times one can find "clothed bubbles baths", "soapy showers", "wear and wash", "dare" games. But only with under aged people or men / cross dressed.

 

    In these cases I never watch and it can't be posted here - what is perfectly normal. It's sad because the way this wetlook is made is the new way to follow... AND IT IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE.

 

 

 

6) Stories can inspire sometimes : http://www.eddaardvark.co.uk/mmm/various.htm

 

    "Summer shower", as an example...

 

    Many stories on this page for wetlook fans...

 

 

 

7) Good method in 3 points : When producers are wining money enough to pay the bill for the server and some advertising, they don't want to change the balance of economics. So they are frightened to try

 

    new things, even if their models are nice and each shooting quite good. D) They should organize some votes, as an example, here, on this very good forum. E) They should put an e-mail link with a

 

    "SUGGEST IDEAS" for visitors. F) They should give storyboards / full snaps shoots to show what we are about to buy. These 3 ideas could change all the wetlook creation ON A VERY GOOD BASIS,

 

     for sane renewal... This said with friendship and respect.

 

 

 

8) Nice example in french from the past : http://forum.minxmovies.com/showc.cgi?23972 - Re: 12 stories in a row clicking next ! http://forum.minxmovies.com/showc.cgi?23961

 

    SO GOOD STORIES ! Unbelievable and forgotten there !

 

 

 

9) G) Ask people what they want H) Don't ignore potential customers

 

    * It's a good idea to try something different

 

    * It's a good idea to make new things with old good recipes

 

    * It's a good idea to turn stories into videos

 

    * If you launch a new products you can create new customers

 

    * If you launch something different you can find that it is suiting a need

 

    * Small business niches can work fine for a long time has their potential have not been foreseen before

 

    I don't understand why there is status quo in this universe. That's why many websites close or don't meet success.........   

 

I will add here my own point of view, 10) Some models sometimes are making both messy and "soapy wetlook", but it is not the same sensibility, the same art of doing it. But they do. Okay, why not ? But I will suggest - as a gentle favor - that wetlook should be done in a more glamour way, and less coarse one. More funny, more details, more time to do it. More faces and chests. Less jeans back-part (to be polite) and legs, even if we can have and like to behold this too. The ratio is not good ! The smiling face of an angel soaping the front of her blouse 2 minutes is more fun than an a......

 

   Thank you for reading.

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