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Message # 5200.5.1.2.1.2

Subject: Hello Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

Date: Sun 10/08/03 15:21:35 GMT

Name: AnthonyX ca

Email: anthonyx@jowc.net

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Interesting note about medicines...

 

Not familiar with the US-EU story, but given that the US is unhappy about Canadian internet pharmacies selling to customers in the US (undercutting the domestics), it would suggest an American double-standard.

In reply to Message (5200.5.1.2.1) Hello Re: Re: Re: Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By Anonymous - uu Sun 10/08/03 12:46:20 GMT

Website:


Before you knock France, the US does very nicely out of medicines to europe via the Internet, breaking ALL the laws on supply of medicines in the European Union.  I don't see Visa clamouring to stop that and uphold the rights of the laws of other countries.

Also the US supplies porn worldwide, often against the laws of the countries concerned.  What is Visa doing against that?  Nothing.

It seems that the weight of Visa International, which is supposed to represent ALL the countries with banks using Visa, is being used to enforce only US law and to protect US sites.

 

But actually, even some of the US banks are taking Visa to court saying that some of their actions breach protections in your constitution and anti-trust laws in the US, so that makes it hard for me to understand why Visa has so many friends here.

 

If this board you like so much disappears because Nigel can't afford it (because Visa cut him off), don't blame me, blame VISA and the mugs who support them, right or wrong.

 

Regarding Pete Townsend, I believe that the records of the child porn site was obtained by the FBI, from the sites bankers, not by tracking from the "customer" end.

And it was the FBI who gave the information to the UK government.

In reply to Message (5200.5.1.2) Note Re: Re: Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By meddler72 - meddler72@hotmail.com us Sun 10/08/03 06:43:57 GMT

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Like I said before, this has to do with off-shore gambling and a regulation here in the US that prohibits such transactions. It wasn't a request to VISA from the US Goverment like you said in your orginal post, it VISA protecting itself, and the banks that issue VISA cards from being fined/investigated by the goverment for breaking this regulation. It has nothing to do with the adult industry. When this regulation was passed, it didn't take people long to figure out they could still use these offshore gambeling sites by using a middle man such as multicars, Pay-pal etc. So, I'm sure that the reason they want to know what was purchased is so they can prevent this. It's not to spy on people. You even said in your orginal post that the French didn't want to disclose that purchases were for gambling, which is the whole point of this! So let the French stop taking VISA and Mastercard customers from the US and other countries. We'll see how long it takes for their economy to colapse.

As for credit card purchase tracking. I seem to recall that when Pete Townshend was caught for logging onto a child porn site it was because he had entered his CREDIT CARD number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like credit card purchase tracking to me, and that was the U.K. not the US goverment.

In reply to Message (5200.5.1) Hello Re: Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By crazygirlsbrian - webmaster@crazygirlsinternational.com ar Sat 09/08/03 22:23:01 GMT

Website:


Firstly I should point out that I did not say your bank necessarily knew every item you bought, only the type of goods of services.

Previously many adult suppliers used innocent sounding names so the unlike GGW, the type of purchase was not obvious.  In many cases only the billing companys name would appear if the seller did not have a merchant account.  For example for years people who bought a Crazy Girls video had a charge appear as Buy/Secure, which multicards used for all their purchasing.  As multicards is mainly NOT an adult billing company, this could not tell a suspicious wife/gf what it was.

 

I also did not say WHY Visa is spying on you.  Of course it is government inspired, but if I had said that I would have been attacked as anti-American.  But the fact that  US government regulation is being forced by Visa on Visa cardholders (not only merchants selling to US cardholders) in OTHER countries, even when it is against European Privacy law shows the total contempt the US government has for the democratic rights of other countries.

 

In reply to Message (5200.5) Info Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By meddler72 - meddler72@hotmail.com us Sat 09/08/03 14:52:11 GMT

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The reason VISA and Mastercard are requiring a transaction code that identifies what is being purchased has nothing to do with spying on what items a customer is purchasing. It has to do with a banking regulation that was passed earlier this year that prohibits off-shore betting/gambling at online/phone sites with VISA and Mastercard debit cards. These type of cards debit from the customer's checking account, but work like a credit card. I'm not sure whether this regulation also applies to normal credit cards or not, but I know that banks offering the VISA/Mastercard debit cards can get in big trouble if they permit customers to make these off-shore gambling transactions.

 

As for controling charge backs, there are already several ways to keep that from happening. One is the verified by VISA program, another is requiring customers to enter the 3 digit code on the back of their card along with the account number. This code is like a pre-assigned pin. Charge backs aren't as easy as you make them sound either. With the bank I work for, if I customer calls and says a charge is fraudulent then the card IS closed. If the customer says  the charge was un-authorized, then a dispute is filed and it can take up to 45 days for this to be resolved and a credit to be issued. Normally in this case the customer is advised to dispute the charge with the merchant first before filing a dispute with the bank, because they will get a resolution much sooner.

 

As for the banks being able to see every item purchased during a card transaction that would be impossible. Just think about it listing every single item purchased at a Wal-Mart or a grocery store. It would fry our computer systems and make customer service next to impossible. It's already bad enough having to look through a couple hundred $2 to $20 purchases to find an item.

 

Besides all that, it already tells us who the merchant is. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out what someone is purchasing. I can't tell you how many times I've got a call from a angry wife/girl-friend that wants to know what the purchase to GGW Videos(Girls Gone Wild) for $19.95 on their statement they just got is. You tell them what it is and that it was done on their husband/boy-friend's card and they say, "Oh man, he's dead" and that's it. No dispute.

In reply to Message (5200) Danger VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By crazygirlsbrian - webmaster@crazygirlsinternational.com ar Sat 09/08/03 00:49:52 GMT

Website:


While investigating why Multicards stopped processing transactions for us, I learned that almost all banks in Europe have stopped adult transactions due to the new Visa Regulations and privacy concerns.

 

You may not know it, but every Visa transaction you make is coded.

That code tells Visa and your bank what TYPE of goods or services you are buying.

And it is NOT only used for statistical reasons.

According to the European banks these and other changes were brought in by Visa at the request of the U.S. government.

 

For example banks in France, who handle the billing for many online gambling sites, have had many transactions turned down because they refused to use the code that would divulge to Visa that the transaction was for gambling.  This is because France has a privacy law that actually MEANS something.

When they were forced to comply with Visa or face being cut off from Visa, they found that 50% of their sales to US customers were refused by the customers bank because they did not allow their customers to use their Visa card to gamble online.

 

The privacy and civil liberties implications are obvious.

Your bank has a record not only of what you spend and who with, but the type of goods and services you are buying online and they use this information to decide whether you can use their card.

Do you want your bank to know that you subscribe to adult sites?  No?  Well, despite the innocent-sounding name that may appear on your statement, your bank KNOWS.

 

Because of this and other recent actions by Visa and MasterCard, the banks in Europe are in discussions about launching a new card, which will free their customers from the all-seeing eye and might of Visa.

In addition, some major banks IN the U.S.A. are looking into starting their own non-Visa cards.  Several are actually in litigation with Visa USA over the matter at the moment as Visa USA are trying to stop them.

It is possible that the European banks may end up refusing to handle Visa and Mastercard although their past cowardice suggests that will not go that far in standing up to Visa.  However, if they do, banks in Asia are threatening to follow suit.

That will mean that the U.S. will be isolated.  Americans will not be able to use their cards in most other countries and most people will not be able to use their cards in the U.S.A.

Canadian banks are watching and waiting to see what happens.

 

Brian

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