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Message # 5200.2.1.1.1

Subject: Hello Re: Re: the evil empire - WAY, WAY, off topic

Date: Sun 10/08/03 04:41:52 GMT

Name: Kev gb

Email: kev.styx@ntlworld.com

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I think Anthony is right here. Within the mainstream adult market (which totally dwarfs wetlook)there is massive amounts of fraud going on.

There's no doubt that the financial institutions regard the adult industry as high risk- there needs to be a shake up of the system where it is all to easy for just about anybody to set up as an adult trader and them default on their customers- creating large costs for administration. Likewise many ordinary people think chargebacks are a great way to get their kicks for free.

 

It is very similar risk assessment to car insurance- if you have a "safe" family hatchback you will judged more favourably that someone who drives a Ferrari. This doesn't mean that insurance companies have some conspiracy against high powered cars- it's a simple business decision.

 

By upping the stakes and driving out the cheats and scoundrels, it will make the adult industry clean up it's act.

 

To those people who think they're being clever in putting through chargebacks and those webmasters who take money and then don't deliver....then it's you guys who have made life difficult for everyone else due to your greed and selfishness.

 

We use ccbill- yes they charge more than almost anyone else. But before they allow you to take sign ups they check your site content- to ensure you don't rip people off. In addition they have better systems for "scrubbing" potential sign ups to ensure they have a good credit rating.

 

Once the lowlifes have been driven away, maybe the more professional webmasters and honest customers will then be free to go about their business.

In reply to Message (5200.2.1.1) Hello Re: the evil empire - WAY, WAY, off topic

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Sun 10/08/03 04:15:13 GMT

Website:


Yes, definitely... VISA is an instrument of the American evil empire, whose secret agenda is nothing less than the suppression of free speech and the imposition of it's "heartland" morals on the entire world! In their efforts to do this, they are covertly spying on all of us! Indeed, they are the right hand of the American government, an extension of the CIA!

 

GET A GRIP!!!

 

Visa is profit-centric multinational business like many others... their agenda is fundamentally no different to yours, Brian. They're just on a different scale and offering a different product. They have to answer to their shareholders - to deliver a profit, not intelligence. They have a fiduciary responsibility to manage risk in an inherently risky business - extending credit to almost anyone who asks for it, and they have a responsibility to pay merchants like you when your customers make purchases using their card.

 

Their risk management issues are probably similar to insurance companies. Therefore, their methods and practices would probably look similar. If there is a significant loss associated with a certain type of business, they're going to increase the client's cost. Beyond a certain point, it isn't worth being in that line of business, and they'll get out. I can understand why the American practice is to simply eat the value of a disputed transaction (assuming it's like $20)... the manpower cost to investigate it would be greater. So... probably makes more sense to simply refuse transactions in any type of business where they are seeing a lot of disputed charges in small amounts. You've already outlined a scenario where this could occur frequently.

 

VISA does have to answer to governments, but not in the way you think. There's no "smoking man" conspiring to secretly manipulate the board of directors. If anything, they are obliged by law to maintain the confidentiality of information they collect in the course of doing business. They don't care how their cardholders spend their money; all they care is that the cardholder pays his bills (with interest). If anything, they want cardholders to use their cards as much as possible... why would they want to deny themselves profit from a large segment of the economy (the adult market) unless there was too much risk for it to remain profitable?

 

The home of free enterprise knows all about what makes money, and can always be relied to foster business. Hollywood is built on the acknowledged relationship between sex and money. Think about magazines like Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler. Where is the US government-sponsored pressure to shut them down? Doesn't exist because the US government has no problem with them as long as they pay their taxes and don't exploit children.

 

As long as people are spending money in the adult market, companies like VISA (or your bank) can make a profit from it, your government (including the US) can collect taxes from it, and nobody is getting hurt, why would ANYONE (except a few pissed-off wives) want to stand in the way? Indeed, why would they not want to support it?

 

All that is happening is that their has been a recognition of and response to the increased risk associated with the adult internet market. It's simply an adjustment. The US government isn't conspiring with VISA to put you out of business, Brian. It is likely that some businesses will be hurt as this all shakes out, but I have no doubt that when the dust settles, there will be viable ways for you and every other adult business to remain in business.

In reply to Message (5200.2.1) Hello coding and control

By crazygirlsbrian - webmaster@crazygirlsinternational.com ar Sat 09/08/03 06:11:22 GMT

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Sorry, you are being misled.  The coding you are talking about was between the merchant and their own bank.  It was this that governed the commission rates charged to the merchant by the bank and it WAS a purely commercial thing.

It is NOT needed for dispute resolution as any resolution does not use the type codes, but the transaction number which has always been shared between the sellers and the buyers banks.

 

The difference now is that the coding has to be divulged to the buyers bank, giving the buyers bank a record of the type of goods the buyer is buying.  This is part of the new regulations imposed by Visa as part of their crackdown on markets they do not approve of.  

If it had been necessary for sound commercial reasons, the European banks would not have opposed it and would not be going to court to prevent it.

 

On your comments about risk.  As others will tell you, the biggest risk in the adult market is when you sell a service to a customer in the U.S.A.  In Europe, before chargebacks are applied the buyers bank must contact the merchants bank who contacts the merchant to give them a chance to resolve it.  US banks simply apply the chargeback, no questions asked.  The most common reason given is "card used without authority".  (ie - wife sees something on a credit card statement - husband claims "I didn't order it" and rings the bank to do a chargeback.)

In the UK that would mean cancelling and reissuing the card.  In the US, with most banks it does not, so the dishonest customer gets away with it, in most cases.

Every security system proposed by other banks has been refused by Visa USA even though Visa USA has more chargebacks than anyone else, and then fines the merchant $30 or more for every chargeback and the banks millions of dollars if they go over 1.5%, which is why most European banks are getting out of the adult market.

 

If they wanted to tackle chargebacks, there are ways to do it.  They have chosen not to do that, but to take steps to make it more and more difficult for a bank to accept adult payments.  Given the millions of dollars involved, it is clearly does NOT make commercial sense to do this, so that leaves one obvious reason.

 

It should be noted that those with long experience in the field point out that every clampdown on the adult market has come in a Republican term of office.  (Without exception - check if you don't believe me)  Now tell me that politics and imposed morals aren't involved.

In reply to Message (5200.2) Hello Re: VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Sat 09/08/03 05:17:45 GMT

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It should not surprise anyone that your credit card company (Visa, Mastercard, or whomever) knows who you've been buying from. They have to; otherwise they can't do what they're in business to do, or resolve billing disputes. Since it is largely the banks who are on the front lines for customer service, they need that information also.

 

Merchants are assigned category codes by the credit card companies. These codes usually affect the "merchant fee" - how much the credit card company makes on each transaction... ie if the merchant fee was 2%, the merchant only gets $98 of $100 of goods or services sold. The actual amount depends on the type of business. I understand that adult videos seems to be at the higher end of the merchant fee spectrum. I think it has more to do with financial risk than anything else. I can understand why financial institutions would want to back away from online gambling - people running up debts they can't pay back and leaving the institution caught in the middle. I can also understand why internet-based sales, and particularly adult videos are deemed high-risk. Someone could easily set up a presence, start making sales with no product to deliver, and disappear before customers start complaining about non-deliveries.

 

Think about it from the financial institution's point of view... Would you lend money to a stranger? How much would you want to know about a person before you trust them with YOUR money?

 

Whether they know this information or not, I can't see how your bank is going to care what you do with your money, as long as you don't default on your loans or credit card debts with them... I think they have an obligation to keep such purchase information confidential though.

 

I can't understand why credit card companies would refuse merchant accounts with adult video businesses, unless there has been an excessive history of fraud. One way around the problem is if the credit card company withholds payment until the customer has had a chance to receive the goods, and their statement, and initiate any non-delivery claim. It would give the cc company no excuse to refuse business, but would hurt businesses who have to wait for delayed payments.

 

On one point I do agree: banks and credit card companies have no business imposing someone else's morals or beliefs on how a person chooses to spend their money... but then, I don't think that is what is happening here.

 

I don't see this as a civil liberty issue at all... it's purely about money, fraud, and financial risk.

In reply to Message (5200) Danger VISA is spying on you and the future for Visa

By crazygirlsbrian - webmaster@crazygirlsinternational.com ar Sat 09/08/03 00:49:52 GMT

Website:


While investigating why Multicards stopped processing transactions for us, I learned that almost all banks in Europe have stopped adult transactions due to the new Visa Regulations and privacy concerns.

 

You may not know it, but every Visa transaction you make is coded.

That code tells Visa and your bank what TYPE of goods or services you are buying.

And it is NOT only used for statistical reasons.

According to the European banks these and other changes were brought in by Visa at the request of the U.S. government.

 

For example banks in France, who handle the billing for many online gambling sites, have had many transactions turned down because they refused to use the code that would divulge to Visa that the transaction was for gambling.  This is because France has a privacy law that actually MEANS something.

When they were forced to comply with Visa or face being cut off from Visa, they found that 50% of their sales to US customers were refused by the customers bank because they did not allow their customers to use their Visa card to gamble online.

 

The privacy and civil liberties implications are obvious.

Your bank has a record not only of what you spend and who with, but the type of goods and services you are buying online and they use this information to decide whether you can use their card.

Do you want your bank to know that you subscribe to adult sites?  No?  Well, despite the innocent-sounding name that may appear on your statement, your bank KNOWS.

 

Because of this and other recent actions by Visa and MasterCard, the banks in Europe are in discussions about launching a new card, which will free their customers from the all-seeing eye and might of Visa.

In addition, some major banks IN the U.S.A. are looking into starting their own non-Visa cards.  Several are actually in litigation with Visa USA over the matter at the moment as Visa USA are trying to stop them.

It is possible that the European banks may end up refusing to handle Visa and Mastercard although their past cowardice suggests that will not go that far in standing up to Visa.  However, if they do, banks in Asia are threatening to follow suit.

That will mean that the U.S. will be isolated.  Americans will not be able to use their cards in most other countries and most people will not be able to use their cards in the U.S.A.

Canadian banks are watching and waiting to see what happens.

 

Brian

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