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Message # 45559.5.1.1.1.1.1.1 Subject: Date: Wed 11/08/10 18:21:25 GMT Name: NCgreg Email: ncgreg231@yahoo.com |
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First, for Anthony. Yes, you know you have done nothing wrong, and I also know you have done nothing wrong, but for the police officer who has never met you before in his/her life, you just might be the green river killer, or the unibomber...from the cop's perspective, it's better to err on the side of caution (better safe than sorry) because *IF* you WERE a hardened criminal (remember, he/she has never seen you before in his.her life) you might have a small .22 pistol hidden in a pocket or in a purse/backpack, and a split second could be all it takes for another police officer to lose their life. This is the every day reality for the majority of police officers. The actual statistical number is probably down low like 5% or less, but realistically speaking, "mindset" and "situational awareness" has more to do with it, than just pure chance...for the cop who maintains his/her vigilance, the chances are a lot better, than the cop who has let their guard down, and gives that criminal the thought that "gee, that cop isn't really paying attention...there just might be a chance to grab his/her gun..."
So, from the ideal/constitutional perspective, you're right, you don't have to give your name or surrender your driver's license or whatever, sure. However, the career criminal is not going to want to give his/her information up either, because he/she already knows the law is after him/her, and all this one cop needs to take him/her to jail is to check with the active warrant database and find out that there is one or more active warrants waiting to be served, and the good times come to a quick end... Remember, that cop has never met you before, all that he/she knows is that you are not co-operating, quoting "civil rights" just like a career criminal would do. If you feel that's what you need to do, I am certainly in no position to force you to do otherwise...all I wanted to do was offer something resembling the cop's perspective...
One thing I have to speak to is the media...I have personally seen how the media can sensationalize an incident, and I believe there is some of that going on with this situation. All I can say for sure is that I wasn't there, so I cannot say for sure how accurate the media portrayal is, but I can say with great certainty that the reports have stirred up considerable responses...it just so happens that the details hit close to home regarding something that all of us have an interest in, and thus, it appears to be an important issue...
As for whether or not the Police have a free pass to ask/demand co-operation in all things, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they do...research it if you want...the police/court might not bother to pursue a conviction, but failure to cooperate was what Janet Lovett was arrested for... |
In reply to Message (45559.5.1.1.1.1.1)  Well said, Anthony...
By FountainFrolic -
I think you stated things very well. Its easy and sounds good to say "you should simply cooperate with the police, and you'll be fine." But all things that a police officer might ask you to cooperate about are not correct, and may in this case very well be violating the woman's civil liberties. Police officers don't have a free pass to ask (in this case demand) your total cooperation in all things. As I've previously stated, their statement that they needed the woman's name, who had not been charged with a crime, to "put into a database" smells really bad to me. I don't know if it was racial profiling to sniff out illegal aliens, or a police "database" flagging "potential troublemakers" or something else entirely. But it sure doesn't pass the sniff test to me. As far as we can tell from multiple news accounts, the woman had done ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong or illegal. There's no crime in getting wet in a tshirt over a padded bra, nor does that constitute "reasonable grounds" to suspect any other violation. The real troublemaker here sounds like the complainant, and while the police had to show up due to said complainant, from what we know it sounds like the proper response would have been to talk briefly to the woman, tell her there had been a complaint but that she had done nothing wrong, then apologize or thank her for taking up her time and tell her to have a nice day - period, end. |
In reply to Message (45559.5.1.1.1.1)  Re:racial profiling
By AnthonyX -
anthonyx@jowc.net
This raises an interesting point about civil liberties.
Why should I as a law-abiding citizen in a free society be required to provide a police officer with my name/ID when I have up to that point done nothing wrong? If my refusal to provide ID upon request constitutes a failure to co-operate with police, which I assume is then considered an offense under the law, then our "free" society is not as free as we would like to think.
I have no problem with providing a peace officer with my name/ID if I am pressing a charge against someone, if I was witness to a criminal or bylaw offense, or if the officer has already informed me of his judgement that I have broken a law or bylaw (whether or not a formal charge or citation ensues). If all the officer is doing is writing up the incident (perhaps just to prove to his superiors that he was doing his job), he should not need to take my name.
I can understand that taking a name without proceeding with a formal charge or citation would be reasonable if the law/bylaw was broken, but the matter was small enough to "let it go this time" because a repeat of the occurrence would suggest a bigger problem requiring some sort of action.
I still think the police went over the top on this one and should have let her go with a warning.
Now that flight attendant who had a meltdown, venting at the unruly passenger and exiting the plane down the escape slide was rightfully arrested. Flight attendants are there to provide what may be life-saving assistance in an emergency. We the travelling public can't have them freaking out on us because one uncooperative passenger just happened to be the last straw in a stressful day/week/month/year. It would undermine the trust placed in them by the air travel regulators, flight crews, and us, the travelling public. I feel sorry for the guy, but the situation should never have occurred. Either he should have sought help while the pressure was building, or someone should have noticed and acted on some sort of early warning sign. It would set a very scary precedent to let something like this pass without consequence, no matter how much it might seem to add insult to injury for the guy. I'd hate to think of all the people we depend on to keep us safe popping their corks over a bad day, just because they know they can get away with it. ...End of off-topic rant.
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In reply to Message (45559.5.1.1.1)  racial profiling
By NCgreg -
ncgreg231@yahoo.com
As I understand racial profiling - that would be if there was questioning/contact based *ONLY* on her looks - for example, the police were in the area, saw her (or another hispanic, or black, or asian...etc) but in this case (and I think Arizona is the same way) the question of immigration only comes AFTER contact has begun for some OTHER reason - speeding, domestic abuse, tresspassing, etc...
I think criminals see the benefit of playing the race card to avoid scrutiny...if it's between midnight and 5am, very few law-abiding people are out of their houses, but if they happen to be questioned by police, immediately it is racial profiling, even though at least half of police officers (I'd guess 80%) would stop and question ANYONE under those circumstances...like I said, carry ID, willing show it, you will most likely be checked for outstanding warrants, and if none are found, you will be free to go...don't stop and argue - "why do you need to see my ID?" because that is what a criminal would do, and now, you have made yourself look like a criminal! (even if you aren't one) |
| In reply to Message (45559.5.1.1) Re:Wow - padded, opaque bra and still an arrest - hope she wins her lawsuit!
By AnthonyX -
anthonyx@jowc.net
I guess one has to ask the question: what is the difference between a padded bra and a bikini top, as it relates to public decency in setting such as a public water feature?
It seems more and more like the complainant was a troublemaker who acted without cause, and the police/city were on some sort of "fishing expedition" with regard to their database. If they thought she might be an illegal alien, doesn't that smack of racial profiling (a highly contentious issue in Canada)?
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| In reply to Message (45559.5.1) Wow - padded, opaque bra and still an arrest - hope she wins her lawsuit! [nt]
By FountainFrolic -
(no text) |
| In reply to Message (45559.5) Re:A sad commentary about how uptight people can be!
By Drdamp -
Check out the story here. Poor woman. Note that her bra was padded, so her nipples would not be showing anyway! I hope she sues successfully.
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In reply to Message (45559)  A sad commentary about how uptight people can be!
By Grif -
I'd love to have her come to this board and be welcomed with open arms!
-Grif
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