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Message # 23702.1.1.1

Subject: Hello Re: Re: Re: OT/ the occupation of a lake

Date: Wed 19/07/06 19:45:51 GMT

Name: AnthonyX ca

Email: anthonyx@jowc.net

Website:

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It makes sense. Not sure about the situation in Canada. Essentially the question is where private property stops with respect to the shoreline, and if one can own property down to the shoreline, whether there is a public easement. I'm guessing that most lakes and waterways are considered a public resource. If you own a property and a natural creek or river flows through it, there is probably an easement covering the creek or river plus some amount of shoreline on either side of it. That easement would likely have been written into the deed from the day the government first sold the land.

 

But the quarry situation appears rather different. For one thing, title to the property, lake and all, was sold. Second, I am assuming the lake is entirely contained within the one property. And it isn't a natural body of water - if not for the quarrying the lake would never have existed.

 

Let's say you owned an acre of land, in the middle of which you dug out a small pond. Should your home-made pond automatically become a communal resource? Obviously not. It's your property and your home-made swimming hole. Suppose you owned a hundred acres of land and it was a really big pond - dozens of acres; does size matter? It shouldn't. Now if a natural creek flowed onto your property and into your pond at one end, and continued out of your pond and off your property at the other end, I could see how the situation might be different.

In reply to Message (23702.1.1) Hello Re: Re: OT/ the occupation of a lake

By wetcouple_s - se Wed 19/07/06 14:48:22 GMT

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Well it depends on the country that you're in as well. Here (Sweden) the laws are different, if it's a sea-front or lake-front property you can NOT keep people off it. Only in exceptional cases would you get a permit to fence such a property, as here the laws normally give anyone access to any property within 300 metres of the shoreline (exception: if you have a residence there, which requires a legal exception to build in the first place, then you can regard the immediate area around the house as truly private). I think the law is different in Germany, as there have been legal cases where german people have bought shoreline properties here and then tried to keep people out, only to be told by the authoritíes that they can not do that here.
In reply to Message (23702.1) Hello Re: OT/ the occupation of a lake

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Wed 19/07/06 11:41:59 GMT

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Seems to me that if the property has been purchased by a private interest, there is nothing you can do about it. The person/entity who holds title to the property has the right to govern its use (within legal limits, of course) and who may enter onto it. That's where the concept of "trespass" comes from. There wouldn't be much point in having title to a property if the state told you who could or could not come onto it. One likely reason the owner/tenant is aggressive about keeping out "the public" is liability. Along with the right to determine the property's use comes legal liability for whatever may occur on it. If you trespass and get hurt in the process, they could be sued for medical costs, loss of income, etc. consequent to your injury. As owner/tennant, they effectively have a legal onus to try and keep you out. That's why they put up the barbed wire. The wire was likely removed because of the hazard it created and liability issues it therefore introduced.

 

About the only thing you could do, I think, would be to petition the local government to buy back the property for public use. If they don't take your petition seriously, or if the owner is not willing to sell, or if the owner demands a price the town is unwilling/unable to pay, you're out of luck. Government can expropriate private property, but there would have to be a pretty good reason for doing so - beyond someone's desire for a local swimming hole.

 

Another approach: what about a negotiation with the owner, rather than a confrontation with either the owner or tenant?

 

By the way, if the scuba folks are parking on private property, maybe they can be charged with trespass, or at least a parking fine for doing so.

In reply to Message (23702) Angry OT/ the occupation of a lake

By Robbi - de Wed 19/07/06 07:48:44 GMT

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For 50 years there is a flooded quarry in my hometown. Generations of Lüneburgers used to go there for bathing and relaxing. My appartement is not even 100 meters from there. It is a very pupular place for the inhabitants of Lüneburg to go swimming or sun-bathing.

In times when the city needed money, they sold the lake to one single person for just "an apple and an egg". It is now leased by the lokal scuba diving club. Unfortunately they want to have the whole lake for thmeselves only. They surrounded the aerea with barbed wire to prevent people from going there but they had to remove it.

Now they imposed a fine of 50.000 Euro for each person who enters the area. What they currently do is, they call the police, and as there are always at least 200 people at the lake, they just pick out the first one they see (regardless the 199 others left) and take him to the police station. The scuba diving club said in the local paper that stepping on the area of the lake is "illigal violation of privacy". Nobody lives at the property - there is not even a house.

Today the local paper said that they will employ a security service to get the citizens of Lüneburg arrested, when they try to enjoy they lake. I live there for 36 years. I was born here. The lake is a part of the city and should be shared by ALL inhabitants, regardless if they are "only" bathers or something better.

I am just wondering that the brave scuba divers always park their f***ing cars on our private car parks...


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