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Message # 16605.1.1.1.1.1.1

Subject: Great Re: My two cents to Hobies post

Date: Wed 15/06/05 16:06:52 GMT

Name: Hobie ch

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Thanks Mike, your'e right. I obviously was not exact enough. I meant, that all international PRN should be blocked, if possible. I'm aware of the fact, that it will be hard to know them all. But block the ones you know about.

 

And right again, only blocking won't get you very far. There is much more to do, to be properly protected... and even then, there's no guarantee that you'll be safe.

Asking to block those numbers will communicate to your phone company though, that you're not interested in these services, so you will have a better stand, when you're argueing against the charges of a dialer.

 

When you have used some services available through dialers, you will have to do quite some convincing, to make them believe, that it was this specific one, that you didn't want.

 

It would go beyond the possibilities of this forum to advise on all the actions that should be taken. There are other websites for that.

Only a few though, go into the legal side of the problem, so I thought to give some information here. I've discussed the matter with several lawyers, judges, and government officials in Germany, Switzerland and Austria and also a special research departement of german police. Ther is a lot beeing done to try and nail those people, but it is a very hard job. And even if all the evidence is leading to one company or only a few persons, it is still very hard to sue them.

 

The main rule is: whatever you do, NEVER think you're safe....

ther is allways another way in and out of your computer for them....

 

It is important to make people aware of the risks and for that matter, every information is welcome!

In reply to Message (16605.1.1.1.1.1) Info My two cents to Hobies post

By Alabama - pl Wed 15/06/05 15:13:39 GMT

Website:


Blocking only premium numbers sometimes doesn't help. And blocking all international numbers is probobly not possible for all people, but an increasing number of ISP's (at least here) will let you block "dialer" countiries. Either one by one (yeah, you know what to choose, what's the chance of calling Burma or Vanuatu etc... :-/) or they might even have a package, which will NOT include the EU, The USA, The Middle East and major tourist destinations, but will include all "risky" countries.

 

Mike.

In reply to Message (16605.1.1.1.1) Warning! Re: Re: There have been lots of people complaining about dialers before

By Hobie - ch Wed 15/06/05 14:12:01 GMT

Website:


Everybody who is ONLY connected to the internet through ADSL or Cable will be safe as far as exessive charges for dial-up connections is concerned, because such connections simply can't be established. Many people tend to forget though, that they still have their old analog or ISDN modem connected, because they send and recieve fax-messages with their PC or use the PC as an answering machine. In such cases, you are still at risk. Apart from that, even if you have no modem connected, dialers can be very annoying, because they will try to connect to the internet and consume CPU-time and/or produce error messages. (I recently had a customer's PC that totally hung, because the dialer tried to connect all the time)

Therefore it is allways better to avoid getting a dialer on your system.

 

For those, who still caught a dialer and got charged for dial-up connections, I have some advice:

 

The legal side:

- charging somebody for anything ALLWAYS means, that some kind of an agreement had to be made before.  In European law, this does not allways require a written contract or agreement. In many cases, is legally complying, if one party makes an offer and the other party accepts the offer in any appropriate way. So if anybody aks you "do you want this for 10$?" and you say "yes", a simple and binding agreement has been made. But, as we probably all have experienced before, if somebody backs out and you have no proof of the agreement, you'll have no chance of fulfillment. If one party wants to claim his rights, in most countries he will have to prove, that an agreement has beem made by the requirements of the law. Here in Switzerland (and in most european countries where the legal system is based on roman law), that means that he will need to prove, that both parties expressed their mutual will (one wanted to sell and one wanted to buy, they both wanted to exchange what they have, mostly money for goods or services). Therefore most agreements are put in writing, signed by all parties, because it's easier to prove then.

 

- now back to the dialers.

The facts above now mean, that by using a dialer, a simple agreement has been made. This implies, that it was the free will of the customer to use the services offered with the dialer. It is obvious, that it was not the will of the user to be charged for services he never used, caused by a dialer he probably never even saw or knew it was there, until he got his phone bill.

 

This is exactly the point, where you can argue: The dialer company will need to prove, that you really chose to use the dialer and the supplied services by yourown free will. And that is something next to impossible. Courts throughout Europe know about the existance of illegal dialers, self-deleting dialers, Pop-up windows, that can be manipulated so that even if you click 'no', a 'yes' will be interpreted and logged (many dialers even write a false log file). They know, that with many dialers, there is no chance to avoid a connection. They know about the existance of dialers, that don't even need the dial-up network services in windows installed, because they can make a connection all by themselves.

 

So if you got caught a dialer and they charge your phone bill, do the following:

1. Contact your phone company and refuse payment for the charges of the dialer, claiming that you never knowingly used this connection. Tell them about the self deleting dialers and the possibilities of manipulating the agreement pop-up windows.

2. check with a lawyer to ensure that the legal system of your country is based on the same principles as written above, so that you can succesfully refuse payment.

3. Check «http://www.dialerschutz.de/rogue-dialers-victims.php» and «http://www.emsisoft.com/en/kb/articles/tec041212/» for more detailed information and actions. If you 'Google' for «illegal dialers», you'll find much more information

4. Check «http://www.dialerschutz.de/international-usa.php» also for USA

and «http://www.dialerschutz.de/international-grossbritannien.php» (only in German) for GB

 

Don't forget to have all premium rate numbers (PRN) blocked , local and international.

 

Take care!!

 

In reply to Message (16605.1.1.1) Hello Re: There have been lots of people complaining about dialers before

By Kragoth - gb Wed 15/06/05 11:05:51 GMT

Website:


You're probably safe from dialers if you use only Broadband to connect to the 'net, as they (almost always) only affect dial-up connections. Just to be extra-safe though, *always* unplug your modem from its wall jack (RJ11) when not in use -- you don't need it connected if you're using Broadband...

 

SW, FW, and BH :-)

In reply to Message (16605.1.1) Note There have been lots of people complaining about dialers before

By Nigel - nigel@wetlook.com ex Wed 15/06/05 10:17:21 GMT

Website: www.wetlook.com


If you've got a dialer installed, then be prepared when your phone bill arrives... it will be VERY big.

 

For those who don't know... Dialers are what you use to connect to the Internet, and it is possible for malicious websites or 'viruses' to install a new dialer, that instead of dialing up your ISP for your connection, rings some premium rate number in an obscure country... nasty !

 

ADMIN Nigel

In reply to Message (16605.1) Lookout Is this a proactive measure, or have there been actual cases?

By AnthonyX - anthonyx@jowc.net ca Wed 15/06/05 06:29:05 GMT

Website:


I'm now wondering about damage which may already have been done to computers used by forum readers (myself included)!

 

Would anyone have any information we could use to know if our computers have fallen victim to such sites and/or repair the damage?

In reply to Message (16605) ADMIN 'New' Anti-Dialer specific rule html

By Nigel - nigel@wetlook.com ex Wed 15/06/05 04:41:44 GMT

Website: www.wetlook.com


Following a suggestion, we have added another line to the rules, to make things more explicit.  Anyone deliberately steering forum readers to insecure sites, containing 'dialers' etc are NOT allowed, and the poster can expect hard action.

 

We have also added a link to the rules from the Add Message page, so there is NO excuse for not checking them.

 

Nigel

 

4 Invalid Posts

Posts are not welcome for the following, they will normally be removed, and you may find your access to the forum blocked.

More serious infringements will involve your ISP being contacted, and in extreme cases, where there is sign of

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4.1 Off-topic - things not related at all to the wetlook community

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